Osama Bin Laden DEAD!

[Slagathor]

I revel in the death of no man, but I must acknowledge there is slightly less evil on the planet this morning.

[Claire Voyant]

Good riddance to one of the most twisted of human beings. He used Islam for his own warped evil purposes, triggering wars and inflaming religious hatreds.

I won't celebrate, but I won't mourn him either. It's poetic he died on the anniversary of Hitler's death.

[McOod]

The Bastard is dead. Pardon me if I do celebrate. As much as we all like to blame George Bush (myself included), it was Bin Laden who started it all. May he rot in Hell!

[Hoichi]

I smell nonsense. They have not given any photographic evidence to indicate that he is dead, nor much evidence at all, and it is a bit suspicious that he was meant to have died on the anniversary of Hitler's death, killed by a crack team who take orders directly from the president. Seems more likely that he has been dead for years, but is being used to distract the US working man from their discontent that was steadily growing. Obama, who has done little to reverse any foolishness caused by Bush, will certainly be re-elected. He is after all, the man who oversaw an elite team's destruction of the USA's favourite boogeyman. I am just worried that the US will use this to reignite the war on terror and attempt an invasion of Iran or North Korea...

[Slagathor]

I have no doubt that Osama bin Laden is dead. I don't need photographic evidence. Al Qaeda has confirmed it. I support President Obama's decision to withhold the pictures. We don't need to give radicalized militant Muslims a poster to rally around their hatred the West. Does anyone remember the effect the Abu Graib pictures had?

And despite your assertions, the United States does not crave invading other countries. Quite the contrary. I admit going into Iraq was based on faulty evidence. (Does your country have a perfect record? I seem to recall England has a pretty strong record on imperialism.)

Both Iran and North Korea are run by Hitler-like leaders. Diplomacy is worthless there. Do I endorse invading Iran or North Korea? Of course, not. But I do get tired of all the American bashing. Would you have preferred the U.S. restrain itself back in 1941? Would you prefer that the U.S. follow the lead of Neville Chamberlain?

Evil must be fought. Osama bid Laden is dead. Good. Hitler is dead. Good.

We live in an imperfect world. We have imperfect solutions. It's very easy to criticize, and very difficult to solve.

[John Darnacan]

May 24, 2011 13:06:11 GMT Hoichi said:

I smell nonsense. They have not given any photographic evidence to indicate that he is dead, nor much evidence at all, and it is a bit suspicious that he was meant to have died on the anniversary of Hitler's death, killed by a crack team who take orders directly from the president. Seems more likely that he has been dead for years, ...

I don't think we require photographic evidence. We didn't need photographic evidence of Adolf Hitler's death.

I also think it's unlikely that he's been dead for years. Bin Laden released comments on the recent uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt.

It's very easy to construct conspiracy theories. I firmly believe Osama bin Laden is dead. I don't expect the American government could keep that a secret very long, nor do I think they would be inclined to.

And technically, he did not die on the anniversary of Hitler's death. He died on the anniversary of the news of Hitler's death. Besides, I don't think a conspiracy would try to create such a coincidence anyway.

[Hoichi]

May 25, 2011 12:13:42 GMT John Darnacan said:

I don't think we require photographic evidence.

It just doesn't fit the MO of the USA in recent years. They usually post pictures of important people they kill everywhere. They did it for most high-ranking and important Taliban members, Al Qaeda operatives, Saddam's sons etc. etc. In fact, they disgracefully made a song and dance of the (should be unlawful) execution of Saddam Hussein, who was actually the sovereign ruler of a country.

I also think it's unlikely that he's been dead for years.

He has had pancreatic cancer in his old age for some time, then, which is possible, I guess.

Bin Laden released comments on the recent uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt.

Most of the time, the men in the videos only have strong resemblances to each other and Bin Laden himself. I do not go in for conspiracy theories out of hand, but I just didn't think that the men in the ''Bin Laden'' videos were the real deal at the time. And, in fact, there is a (spoof) fake Bin Laden video online, which looks as real as the ''real'' videos.

I firmly believe Osama bin Laden is dead.

I do too. I just think he has been dead a lot longer. ;D

And technically, he did not die on the anniversary of Hitler's death. He died on the anniversary of the news of Hitler's death. Besides, I don't think a conspiracy would try to create such a coincidence anyway.

Actually, a conspiracy would do that because the coincidence adds a touch of colour to it. How wonderful it is to have too ''despots'' (although one is the leader of a massive terrorist ring rather than a country) ''dead'' on the same date, but your observation that it is only the anniversary of the news of Hitler's death is astute.

The thing that might suggest that Bin Laden did die for real, though, is that the event was not quite painted to be as heroic as it could be. The US special ops officially killed a cowering old man who used his wife as a shield (though, I do not believe that at all. Bin Laden, as evil as he was, was certainly no coward who would have begged for mercy and hid behind his wife. He was a foreign (Arabian, in fact) Mujahideen in Afghanistan).

But whether Bin Laden died at this time or not is not important, because he is undoubtedly dead. I, for one, will not be celebrating the death of even this most odious of characters. Bin Laden caused the tragic death of many, his name will always be reviled, but a life extinguished is not the cause for celebration; though he would undoubtedly disagree.

[Hoichi]

May 25, 2011 10:52:02 GMT Slagathor said:

And despite your assertions, the United States does not crave invading other countries. Quite the contrary. I admit going into Iraq was based on faulty evidence.

Of course the United States doesn't, but I would argue that this government and the last do. There was no faulty evidence involved with Iraq, Bush lead his country to war based on a lie.

(Does your country have a perfect record? I seem to recall England has a pretty strong record on imperialism.)

Actually, you mean ''Britain'', or the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland or the British Empire (which came about ultimately from the unification of the countries, especially England and Scotland, due to the Scottish Stuart family occupying both thrones), and if you knew my politics (which I will not go into), you would know that not only am I critical of the British Empire, but I am anti-imperialism an capitalism too.

And my comment shouldn't be seen as ''pro-British'', Britain is a warmonger, and turning into a xenophobic (if not racist) hellhole, with its war with Libya. In fact, the war in Iraq was not only a US war, but a UK war too. Many young UK and US lives have been lost due to the conflict in Iraq, which has turned into a new Vietnam.

Both Iran and North Korea are run by Hitler-like leaders.

That is an overstatement. North Korea and Iran are hardly paradises but I would hardly compare them to NAZI Germany, where thousands of Romani, Jews, Communists, Liberals, even Conservatives, were sent into death camps. I am not denying the death tolls in either Iran or North Korea but it is a little too hyperbolic to compare them to NAZI Germany, a country that caused so much death and destructing in a few short years.

Would you have preferred the U.S. restrain itself back in 1941? Would you prefer that the U.S. follow the lead of Neville Chamberlain?

Is this going to turn into a USA saved Europe thing? Because that is not true at all. The Big Three ( the Soviet Union, the United States, the United Kingdom) and many smaller allied nations and resistance fighters save Europe equally as a team. Does the US like it when people say that Russia saved the US? No, they are just ''godless commies''. But the conflict in Russia was important for the D-Day campaign too due to the fact it created another front for Germany to send some men to. Likewise, the RAF near destruction of the Luftwaffe at the battle of Britain was a decisive victory too.

And WWII was a war that needed to have been fought. Far-Right politics in Germany (especially), Italy and Japan caused an evil never seen before by mankind. Sadly it was allowed to thrive in Spain and Portugal by the allies.

WWII was so unlike Iraq and Vietnam, too wars that should have been handled better. In Vietnam the US supported a Christian minority government that oppressed the vast majority of Buddhists (hence the Biddhist Crisis in Vietnam), whilst fighting against the Viet Minh and Viet Kong, who were supported by the majority of Vietnam. In Iraq, the US and the UK just invaded a non-hostile country claiming that it had WMD and supported Al Qaeda despite all evidence to the contrary.

But I do agree that our world is imperfect. However, violence is not always the answer to its problems.

[Hoichi]

May 2, 2011 20:14:39 GMT Claire Voyant said:

Good riddance to one of the most twisted of human beings. He used Islam for his own warped evil purposes, triggering wars and inflaming religious hatreds.

Indeed. Another sad crime he caused was to add fuel to the anti-Islamicist's fire. Islam is no more violent and cruel than Judaism and Islam, but his attacks on the USA allowed anti-Islamicists to portray it as negative as possible - same with the destruction of the beautiful Bamiyan Buddhas.

It is sad that when people read about Islam, see something Islamic or hear an Islamic prayer, they thing of cruelty and brutality, rather than the fact that they brought Hindu numerals and science to Europe (''Arabic Numbers'' are actually Indic, however, they were transmitted via Islamic scientists), as well as many aspects of surgery, art and philosophy, and gave the world many great thinkers such as the masterful surgeon Avicenna, Averroes, the kindly, tolerant and universalist Sufi thinker Rumi*.

*The fact that Rumi preached universalism (all religions are one, all believers believe in the same ''god''), at a time when the church in Europe was actively preaching violence against ''heretics'' and ''pagans'' does go against the view that Islam is always intolerant and violent.

[Slagathor]

Jun 7, 2011 20:37:04 GMT Hoichi said:

May 25, 2011 10:52:02 GMT Slagathor said:

And despite your assertions, the United States does not crave invading other countries. Quite the contrary. I admit going into Iraq was based on faulty evidence.

Of course the United States doesn't, but I would argue that this government and the last do. There was no faulty evidence involved with Iraq, Bush lead his country to war based on a lie.

Actually there was faulty intelligence, a false assertion by a source that Iraq was attempting, and may have procured "yellow cake" uranium from Niger, supporting Hussein's own claims of acquiring or developing WMDs. Clearly, this should have been investigated further, but was not because of biases by people like Cheney and Rumsfeld. I don't believe Bush lied, but rather was duped, which may be worse.

Jun 7, 2011 20:37:04 GMT Hoichi said:

May 25, 2011 10:52:02 GMT Slagathor said:

That is an overstatement. North Korea and Iran are hardly paradises but I would hardly compare them to NAZI Germany, where thousands of Romani, Jews, Communists, Liberals, even Conservatives, were sent into death camps. I am not denying the death tolls in either Iran or North Korea but it is a little too hyperbolic to compare them to NAZI Germany, a country that caused so much death and destructing in a few short years.

I would compare them. "Comparison" does not mean they are EXACTLY alike. People who disagree with the government of North Korea ARE put into concentration camps. Many people who disagree with the Iranian theocracy are executed.

Totalitarianism is Totalitarianism.

Jun 7, 2011 20:37:04 GMT Hoichi said:

May 25, 2011 10:52:02 GMT Slagathor said:

Would you have preferred the U.S. restrain itself back in 1941? Would you prefer that the U.S. follow the lead of Neville Chamberlain?

Is this going to turn into a USA saved Europe thing? Because that is not true at all. The Big Three ( the Soviet Union, the United States, the United Kingdom) and many smaller allied nations and resistance fighters save Europe equally as a team.

Please do not put words in my mouth. I never said or implied USA saved Europe. Many nations came together to fight a common threat. And I do not dismiss any nation's contribution to that achievement, especially Great Britain's. My point was that evil totalitarian dictators should not appeased.

[McOod]

Hey come on guys, play nice. I'm sure we all agree on more things than we disagree.

Sorry, I didn't mean to appease anyone. ;D

[Hoichi]

Jun 7, 2011 21:15:04 GMT Slagathor said:

I don't believe Bush lied, but rather was duped, which may be worse.

I guess we are of a different opinion. I think Bush being duped casts too much of a positive light on the president. I do believe that Bush, like Cheney, in fact, knew that they would not find WMDs in Iraq. And out of all the people involved in the mess that was the Iraqi War, Bush had one of the biggest biases against both Saddam Hussein and Iraq, due to the Gulf War in his father's premiership.

I would compare them. "Comparison" does not mean they are EXACTLY alike.

I know, but the comparison is not that great. A better comparison can be found with England under the reign of Cromwell than with Germany under the reign of Hitler.

People who disagree with the government of North Korea ARE put into concentration camps. Many people who disagree with the Iranian theocracy are executed.

Of course they are. It is the same in most countries. But North Korea and Iran do not just round up people and put them in death camps due to eugenics. And concentration camps are not the same as political prisons. Political prisoners can be found in the US and the UK too.
[/quote]

Totalitarianism is Totalitarianism.

That is as may be, but Juche is not Nazism and neither is the state interpretation of Islam.

Please do not put words in my mouth. I never said or implied USA saved Europe.

I am glad to hear it as that line o reasoning comes into all sorts of debates online.

Many nations came together to fight a common threat. And I do not dismiss any nation's contribution to that achievement, especially Great Britain's. My point was that evil totalitarian dictators should not appeased.

Agreed. But war is not always the answer and should only be a last resort. War was not used as last resort for the Iraqi problems and I disagree with the US fighting UN decisions and invading countries. And a country that actually used a WMD on civilians (the atomic bomb) has no right to make itself ''world police'' and to tell people that they cannot have WMDs just because they are not allied to the US. It could be argued that due to what happened with Japan, that the US should be one of countries without atomic or nuclear arms. However, I believe that no country should have nuclear weapons, which is why I support the CND.

I also believe that the UN should have the final say in matters of war. The UN declared the war in Iraq to be illegal, which means that the United States and the United Kingdom have committed an international crime which they should pay for. The fact that these countries have a lot of dominance in the UN means that they will never pay repatriations, though. But the least the US and the UK can do is become pacifist nations like most of the Scandinavian countries traditionally were and many are still. I naively thought that the UK would not enter another war due to the outcry against its involvement in Iraq, but I was proven wrong as the Libyan conflict is pretty much the UK's war.

[Slagathor]

Hoichi, you seem to state the obvious as if you discovered it, as if no one realized 'war should be the last resort' until you said it. I was in New York on September 11th. I've been to the crater that was once the World Trade Center many times. I know first hand 'war is bad'. Despite this, my initial post about Bin Laden was quite restrained, because I know words can inflame unnecessarily.

However, your rhetoric continually implies that the American predisposition is one of arrogance and war-mongering. You twist the words of others to bash the United States in an intellectually dishonest way.

I am as quick to criticize U.S. policy as anyone. I consider it my duty. I never supported invading Iraq, but I can recognize the pros and cons of the situation. It's never as easy, or as black and white, you make it out to be. You talk about "reparations to Iraq", but fail to recognize the billions of dollars the U.S. has invested in improving the infrastructure and other aspects of the country. The Kurds and others have been relieved of Saddam's oppression, but to you it doesn't matter. Bashing my country (and yours to a certain extent) seems to be the main objective.

Accordingly, I'm really getting tired of your self-righteous, anti-American, snot-nosed, one-sided, pseudo-intellectual crap. You clearly hate America at all cost. So f#@k you Hoichi!

[My apologies to my fellow forum members, but enough is enough.]